So even if that dogma is defined ex cathedra by a pope, by an ecumenical council, or by the magisterium, if it contradicts scripture, that dogma must be rejected. Our two sources of evidence during this period would be Jewish and Christian authors. So were not talking about translations of the Bible. We now are going to have four minute rebuttals. He is also a Sales Associate with Charles Rutenberg Realty Inc., Florida, working with his wife, Realtor Kelly Christie. A protestant scholar Craig keener says neither the title favored or graced one nor the promise the Lord is with you was traditional in greetings even if the person had been of status. We are going to be moving into a time of cross-examination where each debater will get 10 minutes each. This is known as [inaudible 01:09:50]. Okay. So wed only asked does the bible teach that Mary had sexual relations. But once again, we wouldnt assume Go ahead. In fact, in that debate, I never brought up the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. This next question comes from [Mcart 01:28:41] 1977. The phrase [foreign language 00:26:17] is used throughout the Septuagint or the Greek Old Testament without implying any kind of reversal. And of course we can get into the whole Latria and Dulia argument, but thats not what this debate is actually about. I put you on the spot with that, so theres no worries. Born It is not mentioned in any book of the Bible, protocanonical or deuterocanonical, nor in any ancient nonbiblical witnesses such as Josephus or Philo. And I showed that when I cited Acts 21, 25, as well as other examples around the same time period. Mary and Joseph are perfectly free to have children. Obviously the Bible does not teach that every woman had sexual relations. But that doesnt mean that we cant show veneration and respect towards the things that God has made and those people who have cooperated with God in salvation history. Okay, so now we are going to move into 10-minute rebuttals. And the other issue is a fact, is that even though a Pope would not be allowed to declare something that goes against what the magisterium teaches and the magisterium I doubt would ever teach about worshiping Mary, whats interesting is that according to Lumen Gentium, it says that even when the Pope is not speaking ex cathedral, you must actually listen to what the Pope says. Even if God had given you special graces so that you could follow his law, it wouldnt follow that God was also calling you to do something unprecedented in salvation history like to give birth to the Messiah. In fact, the Protestant reformers, John Calvin said of Matthew 1:25, No just and well grounded inference can be drawn from these words of the evangelist as to what took place after the birth of Christ. Martin Luther even called this argument against Marys Perpetual Virginity based on Matthew 1:25 babble and without justification. Second, the Zechariah killed in 2 Chronicles was the son of Jehoiada, not Berechiah. Thats good for me too. It uses [Greek 00:37:34], not [Greek 00:37:36]. So if you got a hallow.com/mattfred right now, click that link in the description below, youll get a three month trial. Submit to my authority. Or, since Jesus said the Pharisees in his presence murdered this person, it could refer to one of Jesus contemporaries. Christies argument continues to fall apart because it assumes Paul retained a pharisaical identity into his ministry as an apostle. Sep 29, 2021. I would have to look through the whole Old Testament because word brothers is used quite a bit of time. Given that the church both east and west had access to the same scriptures as us and were closer to the time of the apostles, how do you justify the church being in era for so long on a number of the Marion doctrines? David K. Clark - apologist with notable books; teaches at Bethel Seminary. Christiaan Kappes. Were were talking about whats actually used in the New Testament, because even the New Testament writers would deviate from the Septuagint occasionally, because they would use a better translation. It has all the free resources including the Study Guide to his first book, all his Bible studies, and his contact info: Steve Christie has also appeared on the Third Man Podcast: Steve Christie has written several books: WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the Protestant Old Testament Canon. [inaudible 01:23:43] This comes from supporter, Matt. So if Jesus has adelphi, he must have had sisters who were born of Mary. In week 7 vs. the San Diego Chargers, Christie kicked a 29-yard field goal with just :11 seconds to play, forcing the game into overtime. No. Its a good question. But those who knew the family, why he is called the son of Mary is interesting, and a good explanation is that he was born of Mary, and that Mary was Josephs second wife. Yeah. Were going to move into seven-minute rebuttals. Luke 2:7 describes Jesus as the firstborn of Mary, although the Greek word [foreign language 00:04:11] translated firstborn, can indicate firstborn opening the womb and is used this way in the New Testament. And itll be really quick. Okay. It doesnt mention sin there. Thank you very much. If anything, Revelation chapter 12 verses one through six describes Mary being in heaven. This is the number one downloaded Catholic app in the app store, and it is the best app Ive ever used ever. And even there, he admitted it doesnt explicitly talk about Mary. So lets just stick to scripture. So I would definitely encourage people who are willing to explore the churchs teachings about Mary more. They also didnt believe in the dogma either. Well, a lot to cover here. The connection of apologetics with evangelism is best summarized by Oxford theologian Alister E. McGrath: " So when were speaking of the adelphos, the brethren of the Lord, its used in some sort of non-standard way. While Mary is a conceived in sin creation. As Christian evangelist and author Mike Gendron wrote, The most deceptive counterfeit is the one that most resembles the genuine article. The same is true with detecting a counterfeit Mary, by first studying the genuine Mary of God Scripture, which does not teach these much later Roman Catholic dogmas, but just the opposite that she was, past tense, the Virgin mother of our Lord who redeemed and delivered her from her sins and who died and will be, future tense, bodily resurrected when Jesus comes to catch up as church. While the wages of sin is death refers to spiritual death, that is the second death. He has the burden of proving that the dogmas contradict scripture. But renowned Protestant Greek grammarian Bill Mounce says Jesus reference to Nicodemus as the teacher of Israel is actually a sarcastic rebuke. 18. This is make or break time. It doesnt even imply that. Which church father would you want to preach at your church? G.K. Chesterton - famous author, philosopher, theologian, apologist. Probably I believe it at the bodily assumption only because theres nothing in scripture that even eludes to her death, it doesnt allude to what happened at the end of her life, which even epiphany as Islamist stated that nobody knows what happened to Mary at the end of her life, which demonstrates there was no eyewitness. So Ill send you a link, you could put that [inaudible 01:35:07] as well. Though, I will say the Septuagint was completed only within a few centuries, possibly even one century, by the time of Jesus crucifixion. Good to hear from you again. You can finish your thought, if you want real quick, Steve. 1644440684524367. steve.christie@phmloans.com. So that would mean if youre the firstborn, that youre going to have other children. And as far as Psalm 69, if you-. The other thing about Jesus is, yes, Jesus did not sin, but the Bible says that he took on sin, which is different than actually inheriting sin because, again, he is conceived by the Holy Spirit, unlike Mary, who is actually conceived in sin. Mary always leads us to her son. Both of us agree thats not the case for Jesus. The point I want to raise there is that adelphi has the same semantic range as adelphos. Luke does use monogenes to talk about the death of ones only child, for example, in different parts of his gospel. Yes, and I also have a video about Protestant inconsistent use of typology where Protestants have no problem even seeing very rough connections, typologically, to Jesus in the Old Testament, but then apply a much harsher standard when those same typological connections or better ones show Mary in the Old Testament. If this verse in Psalm 69 is applied non-literally to Jesus, the verse that talks about, My mothers sons, can also be applied in a non-literal way. I already have. Maybe a little too much. Im throwing you a bone here. . So when it comes to Mary, idolatry would occur if we were to give Mary worship that is due to God alone. So just a historical note for everybody watching. The proclamation on Marys immaculate conception says that the fathers unanimously believe that which is false. As I mentioned in my book, the case for Catholicism Pauls letter to the Thessalonians, he talks about the force restraining the man of lawlessness. Thats all I got. So lets take a look at them. I actually had the opposite situation and as I began to study scripture more in depth, I found to be deep into the Bible to cease to become Catholic. Those would be irrelevant to the question. So I dont know if that answers a question but probably the bodily assumption. So since Jacob is referred to as the son of Isaac, and Reuben as the son of Jacob, then were they only children? And I also have a video about seven popes, and possibly eight popes, that did not believe in the immaculate conception of Mary. However, the earliest evidence for this alleged event comes 600 years afterward, in the second century after Christ. It has to be interpreted charitably, or its possible there might be an error in a magisterial statement recounting history, but that doesnt apply the charism to the doctrine itself. Your view is that the word adelphos, what it means in the brethren is that its talking about Jesus and siblings, they have the same mother but they have different fathers. The Protestant biblical scholar, Victor Hamilton, says, To say that Jesus is Marys prototokos is simply to say Mary had no child before she gave birth to Jesus. This is a term that refers to the child who opens the womb, and it makes sense that Luke would use prototokos because the term, firstborn, is later used in Luke 2:22 through 23 to talk about the purification rite and rite of presenting those who are the firstborn. Is primary meaning of adelphos that you have the same biological mother and father? From 2001 to 2003 he played for the San Diego Chargers, who, with the hire of former Bills GM John Butler, acquired several former Buffalo players. Themissionof Apologetics 315 is to provide educational resources for the defense of the Christian faith, with the goal of strengthening the faith of believers and engaging the questions and challenges of other worldviews. [W]e do not know the extent of his canon. Psalm 130, verse eight, promises God will redeem Israel from all its iniquities. It is never used for a female non-sibling relative in either Testament, nor in its Greek. I dont think he could do that. So, if the greatest of those born before Christ wasnt constricted to accepting the canon Christie is defending, then we shouldnt be compelled to do the same, either. The NAB, a Catholic translation authorized by the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine and approved by the National Conference of Catholic Bishops and the United States Catholic Conference supports this. So the Catholics authority is not balanced on a three legged stool of the Magisterium, sacred tradition, and holy Scripture, but on a one-legged stool of the Magisterium, which subjectively determines what Scripture and tradition are and how to interpret them. As I said before, thats not what were debating today. In his recent book Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, Protestant apologist Steve Christie claims that all Christians should accept the Protestant Old Testament canon and reject the deuterocanonical books of Judith, Tobit, Baruch, Wisdom, Sirach, 1and 2 Maccabees, and portions of Daniel and Esther. 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